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Some Comments Regarding The Orlando Mass Shooting (My Opinions)

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#1 GrumpyOldGuy

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Posted 13 June 2016 - 08:49 PM

Sadly, this incident strikes at three hot-button issues in the USA, all at once - Terrorism, Gays, and Firearms.

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1) Terrorism - So the CIC isn't willing to utter the words "Islamic Terrorism".  Who cares.  Words, or lack thereof, are cheap.  It's better to judge based on actions.  We are taking some very effective actions.  We are systematically taking out their leadership with Drone strikes.  03/25/16 - Abd al-Rahman Mustafa al-Qaduli.  01/14/16 - Hafiz Saeed Khan.  02/14/16 - Jalal Baleedi.  12/07/15 - Rawand Dilsher Taher & Khalil Ahmad Ali al-Wais.  12/08/15 - Abu Anas.  12/09/15 - Yunis Khalash & Mithaq Najim. 

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The list is much longer, and our efforts are being effective.  ISIS is struggling to find qualified replacements for their absent leadership.  Also, with the help of the Russians, we are systematically destroying their finance system by literally incinerating their money.  It's estimated that we have burned up about $1B in the last 8 months by dropping incendiary bombs on their cash storage areas (their "banks").

These attacks are being effective enough that ISIS is searching thru it's personnel and if anyone is found with even a slightest hint of treason, they are killed immediately.  It's estimated that ISIS has killed about 500 of it's own people in an attempt to purge informants.  What could be better?  They're now killing each other!   It appears they are getting desperate, kind of like a boxer losing his fight and striking out in any way possible.

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2)  Gay issues - Yeah, the Orlando guy targeted a gay club.  Is it a hate crime?  I don't believe "hate" crimes deserve a special status...but they do by law.  All crimes have some component of malice and hate built in.  The guy could have targeted blacks, or christians, or football fans.  It doesn't make the crime any less or more heinous than doing it in a gay bar.  I'm hopeful the LBGT community doesn't make this some special event to ask for special treatment.  Everyone should be upset equally regardless of who the victims are.

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3) Firearms - It should be no surprise that mass shootings are a fairly common event in the USA.  We are literally a country of wall-to-wall firearms...approx one gun for every American citizen...man, woman, and child.  And the gun of choice for mass shootings appears to be assault-style rifles.  At one time, there was a ban on these type weapons, but in 2004 Congress decided not to renew the ban (let me guess) after significant lobbying from the NRA.  The Orlando guy was apparently able to purchase his weapons at a local gun show without undergoing any background checks.  A background check may have flagged that he was under investigation by the FBI a couple years ago and it may (again "may") have prevented the sale.  Not sure it would have helped.  Because we are awash in firearms, if he couldn't buy one at a show, he probably could have bought a stolen one on the street, or could have stolen one himself (remember, guns are everywhere), or even built one in his garage. 

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Blaming this on "gun free zones" isn't a valid argument either.  It has been shown that in every mass shooting, the motive was not to "shoot up a gun free zone".  In each case the motive was found to be some specific focused objective to make a bold statement by shooting people.  Some occurred in gun free zones, some didn't.

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Here's a sobering fact - of 79 mass shootings in the USA since 1982, 63 (80%) were committed with guns purchased legally.  Maybe some areas of the legal system need to be tightened up a bit.  But it won't happen.  After the Sandy Hook massacre, more than 80% of citizens supported tighter background checks and closing gun purchase loopholes.  But our ball-less congress bowed to their masters of special interest, and refused to go with the "will of the people".  Do you think your vote counts??   FORGET IT!!

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Finally,  This Orlando guy tried to show he had some connection to ISIS.  It appears he had no direct connection or orders from ISIS to do what he did, but maybe was influenced by them in some way.  Appears he was a lone wolf nut job.  Very troubling.



#2 GrumpyOldGuy

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Posted 14 June 2016 - 05:54 AM

CORRECTION - The latest news indicates the Orlando shooter purchased his firearms at a local gun shop, not a gun show as I previously stated.  Doesn't change things much.  Sorry for the error. 



#3 Chris

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Posted 14 June 2016 - 03:17 PM

Gog.....

 

On 1, agreed.  One thing I like that Obummer has done/continued/enhanced our drone strikes.  Let's do more....!

 

On 2, I think the liberal national press likes to divide us up by color, race, creed, religion, sexuality, etc....   Keeps us fighting among ourselves and not addressing real issues and things we have in common or can learn from other sub cultures within our own American culture.  This administration does the same thing and uses it as a political tool to divide and conquer.   Think police vs black communities or the rest of us against the 1%......  We are easily conquered, distracted, and divided when we fight among ourselves.

 

On 3, totally disagree.  Gun free zones are kill zones and these places are where cowards like this recent perp go to kill.  They know they won't be shot back at, at least not right away.   If 5 or 6 of those folks had a concealed weapon this news story would be very different.  Instead of the police being heroes at the end, after the damage, you'd have a citizen hero or two or three, with less people dead   Read the Pink Pistols response to "we need less guns" news articles currently everywhere.

 

The Genie is out of the bottle and has been so since the 1700's.  No going back, won't happen.  I will not surrender my weapons and put my personal safety and that of my family at risk.  I am not a sheep and will not be turned into one.   "Less guns" means less guns in the hands of law abiding citizens and more guns in the hands of criminals because they don't follow laws.  I will not be "allowed" by government a clumsy, slow, awkward, single shot weapon while the bad guys have semi auto weapons.   I will be armed with a weapon that is "in common use of the time" as so well stated in history and in precedent American law.  I will stand against any adversary on equal footing and no government law that changes that will be followed.

 

This shooting was a mental health issue combined with a personal sexuality issue (hatred of oneself) and an upbringing in an intolerant, backward, perverse, and hateful religion.

 

Chris

 

 http://www.pinkpistols.org/


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#4 The Average Joe

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Posted 14 June 2016 - 05:05 PM

Even with mass shootings, long guns (including scary assault rifles) only account for about 2% of gun deaths.  If Congress really wanted to do something about gun deaths, they would look at the 15 black men killed by other black men EVERY DAY. No assault weapon needed.  Handguns are the guns of choice for nearly all criminals. They are powerful, can be easily concealed, can be reloaded quickly, and you can easily carry multiple weapons.

 

Whack jobs with a hunting rifle, or a shotgun, or a knife are not going to be stopped by anything other than equivalent force. There are no proposed laws that would have prevented ANY of the terrorist actions anywhere. France has strict gun control, how did that work out?  While we don't have to make it "easy" for people to get guns, a larger problem is denying lawful ownership.

 

BTW, the previous assault weapon ban had ZERO effect on crime or murder.

 

When you come up with laws that would actually do something to deter crime without forfeiture of law abiding citizens rights, I will be happy to hear them.

 

Why is no one talking about the Mosque or his dad? They CERTAINLY had some influence in radicalizing . Lone wolf my arse.


"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive" -- C.S. Lewis

 

If the only way to combat "global warming" was to lower taxes, we would never hear of the issue again. - Anonymous

 

"Society in every state is a blessing, but Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one" — Thomas Paine, 𝘊𝘰𝘮𝘮𝘰𝘯 𝘚𝘦𝘯𝘴𝘦 (1776)

 


#5 2 Aces

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Posted 14 June 2016 - 06:19 PM

Ban guns? Why?

Since we are supposed to bend over backwards to accommodate Muslims, why don't we ban gays and gay nightclubs, since the whole *gay thing* is offensive to Muslims?

Ahh, the shoe's on the other foot now, isn't it? :shades:



#6 Chris

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Posted 14 June 2016 - 07:37 PM

And two more things.......   Have been following this story closely and not one news reporter or agency reported that this was a "gun free zone".

 

And two, if the "HIPPA" law is so great and helpful why did they have to suspend it in an emergency like this...?   Those poor parents going crazy, going from hospital to hospital trying to find their kids, not knowing if they were injured or dead, only to be told "we can't tell you", "we can't disclose", "we can't say".   Another example of a government law, designed to "help" and "protect" getting in the way.....!

 

Chris


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#7 GrumpyOldGuy

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Posted 15 June 2016 - 12:11 AM

Chris - Don't have time to research it right now, but IMO the idea that armed citizens would stop mass shootings is wishful thinking at best.  

 

I am aware of one incident to illustrate - The Gabby Giffords shooting in 2011 was not a gun free zone.  It was a Safeway parking lot where firearms were not prohibited.  Subsequent interviews and investigation found there were two people in the audience who were CCW legally.  However, neither one drew their firearm and attempted to return fire.  The shooter was finally taken down by two fat kids and a 65 year old woman the old fashioned way...they jumped him.

 

So...why didn't these "good guys with a gun" do anything?  They were never asked, so one can only speculate.  After thinking about it, there are a variety of reasons a "joe citizen" might not respond to an active shooter situation:

 

-  The natural reaction of a human would be to run away from gunfire.  It's against all common sense to run toward gunfire.  Law enforcement personnel actually have to be trained to run toward gunfire.  People who are CCW will most likely join those fleeing gunfire.  Running toward gunfire is something they don't teach at the gun ranges.

 

-  People who are CCW may not have the confidence they could actually take down an active shooter.  The situation is panic, turmoil, changing second-to-second, bystanders running in all directions.  "Joe citizen" has zero training in these situations, and will most likely be unable to respond in a more calm, cool, and collected way like trained law enforcement might.

 

-  What if a "good guy" actually pulls his firearm, starts shooting and hits a bystander?  Will he be arrested?  Will he be sued by his victim's family?  What kind of legal hassles would this entail?  

 

-  Here's a sobering thought for anyone who is CCW and pulls his firearm in response to a mass shooter.  When law enforcement shows up, how are they going to know that I'm not the bad guy?  I'm in civilian clothes.  No sign across my chest that says "POLICE".  I've got a gun in my hand.  They have every reason to shoot me along with the real perpetrator.  

 

I wonder if people who obtain a CCW permit actually think through what they would do if they found themselves in the midst of an active shooter situation.  I doubt most have...Which leads to the conclusion that good guys ("joe citizen") with guns are not going to stop bad guys with guns in mass shooting situations.  Again, it's wishful thinking.



#8 2 Aces

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Posted 15 June 2016 - 07:31 AM

With the direction of this country under "Bathhouse Barry" (yes, he is secretly gay and it was widely known in his Chicago days), especially with the wide open border situation that he created purposely and by not allowing border enforcement, it's no wonder people are buying guns bigtime.

 

And now that the enemy is here in large numbers, you gun control nuts can take your gun control talk and put it where the sun don't shine. :sun:



#9 The Average Joe

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Posted 15 June 2016 - 08:56 AM

GoG There are MANY incidents of CCW stopping active shooters every year. Even a half dozen or so mass shootings have been stopped. That is not wishful thinking, that is FACT.  Typical media does not report on them, but sites like Bearing Arms does.

 

CCW isn't for everybody, just like riding motorcycles. Maybe people like you shouldn't CCW, but I can guarantee you that I am the type of person you want carrying in a dire situation.


"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive" -- C.S. Lewis

 

If the only way to combat "global warming" was to lower taxes, we would never hear of the issue again. - Anonymous

 

"Society in every state is a blessing, but Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one" — Thomas Paine, 𝘊𝘰𝘮𝘮𝘰𝘯 𝘚𝘦𝘯𝘴𝘦 (1776)

 


#10 ghost35me

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Posted 15 June 2016 - 01:23 PM

Aren't you guys tired of the same old banter back and forth? I can't believe you guys still debate this stuff.

 

Gun control supporters: you have an emotional, knee jerk reaction to mass shootings. Understood. From the the perspective of those who believe in the 2A, you don't deserve the liberty and safety afforded to you by those who would nevertheless die protecting it for you.

 

2A supporters: you can't have a rational debate where the basis of the opposing position is emotional and not founded in logic. It's not worth the time or effort.



#11 Chris

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Posted 15 June 2016 - 06:00 PM

Aren't you guys tired of the same old banter back and forth? I can't believe you guys still debate this stuff.

 

Gun control supporters: you have an emotional, knee jerk reaction to mass shootings. Understood. From the the perspective of those who believe in the 2A, you don't deserve the liberty and safety afforded to you by those who would nevertheless die protecting it for you.

 

2A supporters: you can't have a rational debate where the basis of the opposing position is emotional and not founded in logic. It's not worth the time or effort.

Ghost, yes it does get old probably to a lot of you and I do apologize.......  I know I won't convince the progressives and the anti 2A folks here but my goal is to inform others who may not know the real facts or have studied the subject as well and as thoroughly as I have.  I am really speaking to the lurkers here who read but don't necessarily respond.  I can't let the lies and omissions of fact on the left stand without a response to correct the record.  I will continue to do so.   Regards, Chris


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#12 ghost35me

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Posted 16 June 2016 - 06:33 AM

Chris -- fair enough. There are a lot of deceptions and lies on this topic in the MSM. Most of it intentional. It's sad when one has to rely on false information to garner support for a position. But that seems to be par for the course for the current admin and the MSM. It's a heavy tide.



#13 ghost35me

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Posted 16 June 2016 - 08:40 AM

A perspective from the NY Post on Obama's speech regarding the tragedy:

 

http://nypost.com/20...led-leadership/



#14 2 Aces

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Posted 16 June 2016 - 08:57 AM

It takes a very simplistic (or non-functioning) brain to think that guns are the problem.

When people want to kill, they will find a way. There are many ways to kill. The 2A was not to provide guns to hunt, etc, it was to allow the populace to have guns to be able to defend against a tyrannical Govt. And the way we've been going for 7 years, that time may be approaching. And after the Fascists take the guns, what's next?

But the brainless sheep among us can't comprehend this. They don't WANT TO comprehend it. They have an agenda. A Fascist agenda. They need to be watched. Whether it's soft surveillance or overt surveillance, we need to keep an eye on them. They are truly dangerous, and probably mentally ill. And don't hesitate to take action. If they want a fight, we're up to the task !! :beverage:



#15 ghost35me

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Posted 16 June 2016 - 02:21 PM

From West Hollywood, of all places (yes, the one in California!!):

 

http://www.dailywire...en-hank-berrien







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: mass shooting, Orlando shooting

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